22 March 2026
Göran Winblad · watch on YouTube ↗ · click any timestamp to jump the video
Machine-generated by an AI from the transcript and the top comments. Not my writing, and it may contain errors.
Göran Winblad interviews Marius Bakken — the doctor and 13:06 5000m runner whose decade of self-experimentation became the Norwegian method. The heart of the interview is the golden zone / muscle tone reasoning (3:17–10:00) and the double-threshold and Ingebrigtsen history from 40:16 on, including his response to Gjert Ingebrigtsen's claim of sole authorship.
The whole method in one sentence: fine-tune intensity to where you can do the most aerobic work at the least muscular cost — a narrow band roughly 0.4–0.6 mmol/L below your actual lactate threshold (he published this in 2000) — then block it together and let everything else orbit that center.
Why most programs fail: they ignore how muscles respond. As a GP he's palpated thousands of runners — "most athletes have suboptimal muscles all the time." The window where you get aerobic effect without doing negative things to the muscles is very narrow; miss high and each session's residual tone and lost elasticity accumulates.
Jakob Ingebrigtsen and others say threshold volume isn't for 3–5-runs-a-week amateurs, who should push intensity instead. Bakken (who once agreed) now argues the opposite: intensity's load is underestimated, it accumulates session to session, "and sooner or later the muscular system says stop." Amateurs also lack the pro's recovery — controlled threshold fits a life with kids and a job.
Continuous tempo runs cost far more muscularly. Micro-breaks let you run faster within the same zone — recruiting the motor units you'll need in races — while recovering quicker afterwards. Hence double-threshold's design: long intervals in the morning, short and faster in the evening, splitting the paces as wide as possible.
45 seconds on, 15 off: high fiber recruitment and surprisingly high sustained heart rate at a cost far below what the pace suggests. He tried 30s and 60s versions; 45/15 was the sweet spot. Decades after retiring he still touches his old competition paces in it.
Think of morning + evening threshold as one big session with a long seated break: the morning primes the evening (which feels strangely easier), and the stress response mostly lands the next day — so you pack maximum golden-zone work into one load window, then buy a longer recovery before the next.
Green light (good HRV, low warm-up heart rate, springy quads on his free "stair test"): extend the session 20–40% and maybe take two recovery days after. Red: drop to easy 45/15s or rest. Most plans fail by being either too rigid or too varied — variation is "a threat to most athletes," not a virtue.
He got to 13:22 on conservative heart-rate zones alone; lactate testing was for the last refinement. For recreational runners at 5–6 runs/week he thinks a meter is genuinely valuable (it costs about as much as a pair of shoes): the golden zone is hard to feel, and the less accurate your method, the bigger the safety margin — and the smaller the effect.
Easy days exist to bring muscle tone down. Running at 75% buys a little more aerobic work but loses control of the recovery window. Strides at the end of easy runs spike tone for no fiber-recruitment gain — save sprints and strength for the one weekly "X-session" where experiments belong.
The lineage: Bakken trained with steeplechaser Bjørnar Kristensen, who was in Henrik Ingebrigtsen's group; the schedule transferred. Session by session, break by break, even the days of the week match his 2004 template (180 km vs. Jakob's 181.5) — except Jakob runs the weekly X-session on hills, where Bakken ran it flat.
Gjert Ingebrigtsen stated in court that no one else influenced the training method. Bakken, who says he exchanged training specifics with Gjert for three or four years while the programs were designed, responds with striking calm: the exchange was friendly, he's fine out of the spotlight — "at the same time, it's not the truth."
He tested extensive stretching on himself, then tested the Kenyans: stable and elastic, but barely flexible. Stretching feels nice and changes nothing structurally. Strength work raises muscle tone and is hard to place safely in the week — even with a world-class coach programming his, it was barely manageable. His suggestion: try removing it for a period and compare.
Same GP office since 2012: when the new shoes arrived (~2018–20) he saw a visible drop in running injuries among his patients. He's unreservedly positive — but notes shoes don't remove the intensity-control problem, and micro-tweaks like heat training and bicarbonate are noise next to it (heat's one virtue: stress response without loading the muscles).
The top comment captures why this interview matters: endless second-hand "Norwegian method" content exists, but here it's the originator and actual researcher explaining it.
A sharp historical footnote: Mihály Iglói's runners did double sessions of controlled interval work seventy years ago — arguably a rediscovery and systematization rather than an invention. (Bakken himself credits Peter Coe for the 1995 seed.)
Several longtime readers of Bakken's blog flag the same counterintuitive takeaway: session variety — usually sold as a virtue — is framed here as a main injury and control risk.
Viewers noticed Bakken appears to be doing the interview in scrubs from an unused hospital room — the 13:06 5000m man is a practicing GP squeezing this in at work.
Auto-generated captions. Click any line or timestamp to seek; the current line highlights as the video plays.
0:00Those African athletes were dominating completely.
0:02So I had to do something and I started a long period of experimentation that lasted almost 10 Today I'm joined by
0:15Marius Backen, medical doctor and former elite athlete with a 1306 personal best in the 5000 meters, but he's probably more known
0:24as the godfather of the Norwegian method.
0:27This is the training philosophy that helped shape runners like the Inger Britzens and changed how the whole running world looks at
0:34threshold training. You just released a book called the Norwegian Method applied and today we're digging into how this whole training method
0:41started, why it works and the most common mistakes everyday runners do who try to follow this approach.
0:49But first about this how this whole method started because a lot of people talk about it today but very few actually
0:57know the audience of this way of training.
1:00Can you take us back to when you were competing at the highest level and explain how you ended up being instrumental
1:06to developing this sort of training philosophy?
1:08I mean when I was an active athlete eh the African athletes were completely dominating the field.
1:17Eh, for example when I was in the final of the World Championship in 2005 I was the only runner from Europe
1:25and you had Craig Motram from Australia, the rest they were from Africa.
1:29These days are different you know you have a mix of European Americans but at the time it was quite different.
1:35Eh, and what I noticed in the 90s in the mid to late 90s eh was that the training we were doing
1:45at the time eh in my mind wasn't sufficient for me as an athlete to get to a level even close to
1:51the level they were at. So I had to do something and I started a long period of experimentation that lasted almost
1:5910 years. You have a lot about this and when we read your book about this it's been it's clearly been a
2:06long process but what did you feel was missing in the training you were doing before you started experimenting with more and
2:12more freshold work? Yeah, I mean it was several things.
2:17The main thing I think was a normal training model in running with the load that you experiencing on the muscular system
2:26eh was too little eh and it was too costly and the result was that it was not possible to get even
2:34close to the African athlete in terms of the general base.
2:38So what I did was to try to find tune the intensity to the level where you can do as much work
2:48as possible with the least cost and in addition try to block it together and see if that can be could be
2:56a model to develop the Arabic system as high as possible.
3:01Eh, so like I talk about in the book, you know, you're standing in the center and the center is the golden
3:09zone, let's call it the treasury conservative threas focus and then you look outwards and then you pull in elements from the
3:15side and you try to maximize everything.
3:17That's the main thought. Eh, and in one way it seems simple but you also have to be very very precise to
3:25make it work. If you miss then it's just a big big trouble coming for someone completely new to the Norwegian method
3:34and that way of thinking about training, what's the easiest way you found to like explain what what the whole training theory
3:41is about? Yeah, it's about developing the anoric threshold as high as possible using subeshold work which means that let's say you
3:51have an anaerobic threshold of like 3 millim per liter in lactate which is for most somewhere between 80 87% of max
4:00rate. try to stay right below and in the area up towards that point and you do that for the main part
4:14of the training and then you add some elements of higher intensity training usually once a week in the winter many athletes
4:21do it with hill work to get an innovation of muscles as best possible way and then you try to block the
4:30training. hard double upble easy days which is based on muscle tone so the whole system is built around intensity blocking and
4:43muscle tone in your book you write a lot about that everything surrounds this this golden zone that you call it that
4:51is am I correct to explain it as as sitting just below the anaerobic threshold that you have a bit of a
4:59margin to classical and when you started developing this this training method for yourself eh did you test specifically different areas below
5:12the freshal zone and how did you find this to be like the golden Yeah, I did it by doing like two
5:21or three things. I started to of course test results.
5:27I mean what happened if you did this type of training over a period of time to the anaerobic threshold and with
5:32a lactate meter I could mesh it quite eh easily.
5:36And the other thing was related to muscle tone.
5:39I would monitor and feel the muscle tone and find out what type of intensity and load eh did what to the
5:49muscles. And then I found this golden zone.
5:52I wrote about it back in 2000.
5:54The article is still out on my web page marisbacken.com where I explain that it is useless around 0.4 to 0.6 below
6:02the actual threshold. Ehm eh so it was something that came about through testing both lactate and also muscle tone and then
6:13looking at results to see what was giving the best effect and then of course combining it with double thresold that started
6:20with back in 1995 eh so quite early when when talking about training there will always be like individual response response responses
6:28all all humans are are different but what's really interesting I've the last couple of years or maybe last five to 10
6:37years when this sort of running training has become really popular with double fresh and and a lot of fresh work is
6:44that this sort of systems seem to work for a lot of people yet to hear anyone who has really applied this
6:52sort of basic training principles who aren't satisfied with the with the outcomes.
6:58Why do you think this is such a universal training method that works so well for so many both elites and amateur
7:06runners? No , it's quite simple.
7:09I think eh I think the main problem with most running programs is that it doesn't take into the limitation of the
7:18muscular system. So most training programs you either lose control over the recovery period or you get too much of an anaerobic
7:27load to maximize the aerobic capacity and it all comes down to how the muscles respond to training and it's very very
7:36narrow the area where you can get the type of aerobic effect without doing negative things to the muscles.
7:43And like I talk about in the book, most athletes have suboptimal muscles all the time and I palpated thousands of patients
7:54air runners and also many world class athletes.
7:58And you see the same thing when you look at the top athletes and you know those who have been doing treasure
8:07type work it's different the muscles so the response is different and like you said it's I think it's universal in terms
8:15you have a selection that is natural usually if you run at a certain level you likely have a muscle fiber composition
8:25that is more slow twitch mainly slow twitch so that's the reason why I think it works it works well because other
8:43type of training is too negative on the muscular system yeah that's that's a really interesting why why it works so well
8:51I would also argue that that I think a big reason why this kind of training is works so well is that
8:57it really prior the continuity and sort of low risk training as a so many times that like injuries either occur when
9:07when intensity is really high or the length for duration of the sessions are are really high those are the main like
9:15risk areas and and with this the Norwegian method you keep the the length the duration of most sessions pretty sensible and
9:23and also I see a big difference between being at that 85% of max heart rate and 90 to 95% in terms
9:32of injury risk and it's it's hard it's probably multifactural why why this is probably it is it is because it's it's
9:45as you also describe in the book there's like this exponential demand when you go above threshold and that I think that
9:53eh eh has to do with the the demands on the tendons and the muscles and the joints and everything and maybe
9:59part of it is also that the running form starts to break down when you when you run it really high intensities.
10:07Yeah. And the other thing is when you do intense training you the muscle tone and the muscle elasticity is unpredictable.
10:15Yes lack of elasticity and high musclone for too long after the session drag each session you know accumulating so that's one
10:33thing I think is the main reason and you know my recational run now been still run my threas runs every week
10:40and never injured and of course genetics you know at the time I can feel if I go a little bit too
10:52intense for a period of time just because I like it sometimes I get it to trouble so it's like this narrow
10:59path you know simple but narrow I would think I would you know explain the model as interesting you touching on that
11:07that you now are what you call a recreational runner and and you still train not as much Yeah, I mean I
11:19do two thresold runs and one a little bit more intense 45 session each week and then I fill in with other
11:25runs. So I do six usually six runs a week.
11:28Eh, and eh like I talk about in the book, if I lose control over my training for or if I let
11:36go the control for just like four to six weeks, I go straight into overloading the muscular system.
11:42Even though I mean I've been running 12 times to from AS to Beijing in my career.
11:47I've been running a lot and even with that base I get into trouble if I lose control over the intensity.
11:53Yes. Yes. I think that's that's a really really important topic that we we can touch a bit bit more on because
12:01it's clear from hearing you talk now and also from reading your book that you for sure don't think that that this
12:07kind of high volume threshold approach is only for elite elite runners but and this has been quite frustrating for me because
12:15I listen to a lot of podcast you know there are thousands of running podcast these days and they interview a lot
12:21of elite athletes and I've heard many men including elite Jakob Ingriten saying that this kind of fresh work it's not for
12:29amateurs because if you run only to five times a week to do higher intensity work and I think from their perspective
12:36it makes sense that if you only have that little volume if you're going to have any progress you need to push
12:41the intensity more but but from an amateur level or or hobby runner it having free to five sessions with a lot
12:53of that 99% max heart rate high a good recipe for getting injuries and and losing all of that continuity as I
13:04see it. Yeah , I agree.
13:05Yeah . So why do you think so many elite say that this kind of training is not for amateurs?
13:14because I think a lot of people get confused in that way.
13:18I mean I think the obvious reason is eh because we underestimate the load of more intense training you know and like
13:29I said when I look at runners that I have in my general practice here in Norway they run three to five
13:36times a week and you feel the muscular system they come in injured and I do an examination and also palpate.
13:42and you have this high tone low low elasticity and that's a big big problem you know it's high injury risk you
13:51will run a lot slower than you could and that is because of intense load and I think elite athletes and if
13:57you asked me also in 2004 2005 I would say probably something similar aso would say now this is for elite now
14:06I change my mind buse I think it's different or yeah that's my experience with it ehm And I think again is
14:16what you pay the price pay for intense training.
14:18Let say you do four sessions a week and you do intense training on four sessions.
14:22You get an accumulated load one session roll over to the other one and that's the main problem and you know sooner
14:28or later the muscular system will say stop and then you have a problem and then you can run for years with
14:34muscles not working. I mean it's just it's a high high cost cost.
14:39Yes that's really great point for sure and also think a missing part there might be that that elite athletes I mean
14:48you have been an elite athlete yourself that at least if you're 100% professional you have time to recover you sleep you
14:57eat well but regular persons with maybe with kids and jobs they don't train that much volume but they live high volume
15:07with with a lot having two small kids if I go up early before they wake up and and do a really
15:21hard session view2 max high intensity I'm not I'm not fully ready to directly switch on to dead mode when they work
15:30wake up but if I do controlled five times six minutes control threshold it's it's just like I I'm even more ready
15:39to tolerate the life the real life afterwards.
15:43I think that's also I think that most people miss that it's not only good for for driving performers over time that
15:51it's also a sustainable way to train in a busy life as well.
15:59Yes, for sure. And you know taking into consideration the full like life situation you know I talk about in the book
16:05how you can use for example double threshold to do on a Saturday you do morning and evening with threshold work even
16:12if you're an amateur buse that day you can rest during the day if you don't have you know work a work
16:17situation let's say have static work you do manual work during the week perfect with double thresold on a Saturday when you
16:24can rest between so you can you can use this type of training to to fit Arabic work level sustainable eff yes
16:39and going to talk more about double fral later I think but before we dive into that in the book and from
16:48hearing about your philosophy for years you make it very clear that that a huge proposal of splitting up the fresal work
16:56into intervals compared to having it work can elaborate why you think this is important I mean when when I was you
17:06know running in the late 90s it was a big focus on doing continuous work bu you have some studies showing that
17:15it gave much more like an effect like isolated effect with continuous type of workout and also the Kenyans at the time
17:23they were doing a lot of continuous work eh the challenge with continuous work It costly it costs much more than intervals
17:32and that is also partly due to the muscular system.
17:36You get a small like micro brakes in the in the rest and therefore you can run quicker in the intervals but
17:45you can experience shorter recovery time afterwards.
17:49So it's like you know you kind of weigh things all the time in this type of method.
17:55you you look at what can give the highest effect at the least possible cost and that's one thing that is central
18:02to it and also you need to see if you can get the speed high enough in order to get the recruitment
18:08of the muscle fibers that are necessary the motoric units that are necessary for you know a race situation so you need
18:16to try as best possible to get it as high as possible which is also why in double thresold I recommend in
18:21the evening the shorter intervals and the longer in the morning to get the split you know as wide as possible in
18:27pace between morning and afternoon. So trying to work within the threshold range and trying to push the pace as much as
18:35you can when is possible without going into the incorrect zone I would say.
18:40Yes. Yes. That's really interesting. And and talking about running at quite a high pace but still maintaining that extra that is
18:5045 seconds of work and 15 seconds rest.
18:54And this is a session I have been using myself for years as well and use with a lot of my my
18:59athletes that I see that you get a lot of value from.
19:03Can you explain a bit how you first started incorporating this and why you think it's so effective?
19:09Now it was down to like you said getting high and off speed and again back to the muscles muscles the least
19:19cost and what I saw that type of session is that you can run quite fast and you can get a high
19:28recruitment of muscle fibers and the cost is is less than you would expect.
19:33Eh, in addition you will see that the heart rate is surprisingly high during the whole time.
19:38So we have a very intense like cardiovascular type of session.
19:42So you get a lot of components at the same time.
19:45Eh I did one minute intervals, I did 30 second intervals, found that 45 was just like a sweet spot.
19:51So I mean you can do variance of this, but you know in general I think it's a very very good session
19:58to combine with threshold work the rest of the Eh, and I mean I still do 45 15 once a week and
20:05I can push you know up to my old pacing competitions and that's due to how the session is composed I think.
20:13Yeah . It's quite clear as from hearing you talk a little about your training now that you must be in pretty
20:21good shape still. But but do you ever compete nowadays yourself?
20:26No no no. I did my last competition when I retired.
20:30When I was done, I was done you know I had my studies other things nothing like that.
20:35But I still like to you know have control over training also due to injury risk.
20:39you know I I want to be training today and in two years and in five years you know so I I'm
20:46very I don't do la testing anymore but I do heart rate of course and I do like checking in with the
20:53and you know when I was running I I did lag date and heart rate cross testing on all the session so
20:59I have a pretty good idea where I'm at in terms of the light date.
21:04Eh, so and you know one of the reasons why I continue doing the 451 each week is for simplicity.
21:11I talk about in the book, you know, you don't need all this like variation is is really a threat to most
21:18athletes is not something that helps them you know buse every time you do something with variation you have a high risk
21:26of injuries and you lose control over the recovery window and you can also trigger the anaerobic system to be like the
21:33main like I talk about the main horse you know you just switch over and you're happy for two weeks and then
21:37you go downwards so you have a lot of things that you have to 4515 for example is a good session you
21:44it's low risk high reward again yes for sure I've been really loving the session because as you say you get all
21:53of this kind of different stimulus while the recovery time is as you say I also been surprised how how short it
22:00can be at least if you look at like the hard graph and compare it to two sessions where you run at
22:07a similar heart rate for longer intervals It's it's really cool how I think it's one session can say you get a
22:14lot of bang for the back and and perfect for just recreational athletes who maybe have limited time and and don't want
22:20and have eh recovery as well.
22:25Mmm. Eh yes, but you said you were completely down with racing.
22:29You never miss that feeling of starting line.
22:32I can imagine that you would do really well in like master championships.
22:38When it was, you know, I had this 10 year period or something that I was experimenting and I would, you know,
22:44stay every night before bedtime, I would go through my training dies and I would try to, you know, try to figure
22:49out how I can, you know, get to the level I wanted.
22:54It was just a long as cognitive and physical period of my life.
23:00Eh, half a year before I retired I stopped doing that you know.
23:05So then I knew I was done you know I had my studies I was two years into medical school and that
23:10was the next step you know in the journey.
23:13Then I was you know away from the sport for a long time and then I started writing about what I was
23:18doing back then in 2021. eh and you know publish some articles on my web page just to explain like the like
23:27the historical context of this type of training and the book I think is like an extension of that just to maybe
23:36help more athletes and coaches understand why this type of training is for a lot of athletes safer and better I think
23:48so you feel you feel done with that that part of your life I can imagine that like I'm too busy to
23:53compete now you know life is too busy I can imagine also when you have this background knowing how hard you work
24:01and all the work you put in you will always compare to that if you would compete but it's really cool to
24:09hear that you still continue to run and and do you do it mainly for for like health purposes to maintain a
24:18good health or is it also that you just love running?
24:23Well, I mean I think it's a combination of several things.
24:26I think it's part of what I mean training is part of what you should do in your life to function.
24:31You know, as a doctor, I need to be sharp with my patients.
24:34I have kids and I have family and I need to be you know in the best possible state that I can
24:40be and training central to that.
24:42That's one thing. The other thing is that it you know like I said doing the threshold work now it just kind
24:47of reminds me of where I've been in my life.
24:50when I'm running the 45150 at high pace I can feel the same feeling that I did back time and has that
24:57has value I think you know it has to do with identity and you know being someone that takes care of your
25:05body and I also I can sit with my patients and I can say okay this is how you can you know
25:10do this and this is my experience with it that's good you're not one of those doctors sitting there usually weight and
25:26back that that period where you were experimenting a lot I think you write in the book your book that you took
25:33something like 5500 la date samples on yourself and and on others how important was that that blood lack date testing in
25:44this journey for you to to finding out this this training method.
25:50Yes, I mean I started eh if we go a little bit further back in the mid 90s, I was coached by
25:58Peter Co. First a coach called Joe Newton in the US and he was friends with Peter Co and Peter Co came
26:04over to the US and he started training me where was which was the place where I started double threshold.
26:09So I had that time on blocking of training with me and then I would you know later get into long distances
26:16and I would copy the old training diaries from the 70s from my old coach in Norway eh and I would do
26:23it by heart rate. I was lucky at the time buse the heart rate training was conservative so I would hit like
26:30the golden zone already before I started with lack date testing.
26:34So I did actually you know down to 1322 with my old coach Per Halle was seventh in the Olympics in 72
26:43eh mainly by doing heart rate training.
26:46The challenge is eh to get down from that level and downwards you need more precision and that's where lactate testing came
26:54in and lact testing allows you to get the best possible eh overview of what is happening to the body during an
27:04intense session. Erm, so it just helped me tune things in and I also did testing on the Kenyan athletes.
27:10I could see, you know, what level they were at in terms of intensity.
27:14So, it's just like a way of really fine tuning the training.
27:18Yes. And at least here Norway now we see a lot of recreational athletes starting experimenting with la testing and and using
27:30these testing machines that aren't usually expensive but it's a bit of a hassle getting your blood out there and I also
27:38been experimenting with it both on myself and and athletes that I coach.
27:43Mmm. And I think it's it's really interesting, but I would like to hear from you how valuable do you think it
27:48is for someone that is not on that 13 minut f 5000 meter level for for recreation athlete to to use an
27:56actual lack day testing meter? Yeah, let's say you run five or six times a week.
28:01I think it's very valuable. Eh, and the main reason is that the zone I talk about is narrow.
28:08It's kind of difficult to feel and you can start cross testing it with the heart rate with the talk test those
28:16things and I talk about that in the book how you can you know do the triangulation where you have different methods
28:21and you you know will finally get a good feel where you actually rattle this eh and you know new shoes they
28:28have the same price as like that meter eh and you know we have to remember that we are doing a high
28:36risk sport in terms injuries. I mean, you can be running on feeling, you can do whatever you like in your training,
28:43but that comes with a risk and that's the that's the main problem.
28:46With the lactate meter, you will have more control over the training.
28:49You don't need to do eh testing that often.
28:53You can do it sometimes and you can cross check and you can learn how this works.
28:58You can see the morning, you know, the afternoon, the differences, you will get a pattern going.
29:03Eh, so I think it's valuable if you do training five six times a week or more.
29:10In high value. Yeah . So if I understand you correctly using using blood testing, you're able to more precisely be right
29:18at that golden zone below. Yes.
29:30Aim a bit more conservative to not risk going over the line?
29:35Yeah, that's the thing and I talk about that in the book.
29:37you know the more inaccurate the method the more you have to put in like the safety margin in the training eh
29:44so you will lose some effect but you will at least not go into muscular overload by doing that so what happens
29:54with the elected meter is it you can get closer to the ideal intensity ehm and with the same low risk that's
30:04the value and you can also I talk about that also in the more intense in training sessions sort of what system
30:14is working at the maximum level.
30:16Let's say you have a lactate curve that is very flat at the high pace you know that the aerobic system is
30:22pushing as much as it can.
30:24If it starts to slide upwards too early in the hard session, usually the anaerobic system is triggered too early and that
30:31tells you something. Tells you have the back of the anaerobic training.
30:34Need to go back to thres training need to go to altitude whatever just to get back to that or even rest.
30:40I mean if you do some easier work usually the anaerobic system will slowly go back a bit and you don't have
30:46to push the button again. So you can use it for a lot of things.
30:49But the main thing is to get an idea where you are and then you can cross test.
30:54with for example heart rate and feeling of what I found interesting using it a bit myself that it was like in
31:03the beginning the first couple of sessions where I I took this blood test I I I always try to guess what
31:10the number it's I guess you do that as well fun game to play with it [laughter] game the inter and but
31:23maybe two or three weeks or using it quite regularly like my guessing becomes so much more correct and I guess it's
31:30a really excellent way of basically learning what's happening in your body and and what feeling and heart rate correlates to two
31:37different lactate I think if you if you have the opportunity to just use selected meter because the biggest cost is using
31:46these strips if you use them a lot.
31:48So if you can just have a period where you use it quite intensely, I think you can learn a lot from
31:54that. Yes. but I guess has to be clear to a lot of viewers listening to this who don't want to extract
32:00their blood on every session you can for sure do this kind of training without I'm sure you agree on this without
32:06of course you can you can for sure do it you just have to put the margin has to be be greater
32:11you know you have to go a little bit down in intensity which is perfectly fine you know we talking a lot
32:17about threshold training that it's it's as you say it's the the the center of this this old training mythology but on
32:24top that also want to add add volume and and you make it very clear in the book that you want the
32:31easy sessions to between this freshold intervals to be really easy and controlled and you say under 70% of max heart rate.
32:41Yes, correct. Eh, why do you think this is so important?
32:45I mean, we're back to muscle tone again.
32:47You know, I talk a lot about that in the book and it's not that you know I did my master's thesis
32:53in medical school on muscle tone because I wanted to understand it more and you know it's one of the reasons again
33:00why I think this training method works so well.
33:04And on the easy days since you have the high load or the high volume on the hard training days double threasel
33:11you would like the muscle tone to go down on the easy days.
33:15And the easiest way or best way to do that is to stay eh easy enough below 70% of max heart rate
33:22on the easy days. You know you will get a little bit more aerobic capacity going by going 75% but you will
33:30again lose control over the recovery window.
33:32So we back to doing something structured to have full control over the full week in terms of recovery and load you
33:42know and that's why it's so important to go easy on the easy runs and also I talk about you know I
33:50don't recommend doing like strides or anything like that on the easy days unless you have control over where your muscular muscular
33:59system is ehm buuse you will eh do it with a high risk.
34:05So if you do more intense like strength work, sprint work, do it connected to what I call the X session which
34:11is like a once a week session where you experiment, you go harder, you do all the things and you compose it
34:17into that session instead. It's very interesting and I think this is [laughter] this is common knowledge for for most but I
34:24think this is where most amateur runners go wrong that they push the easy sessions way too hard and that also injury
34:31risk stops to become and they put in some stripes at the end you know do five hard stripes and that's for
34:37the muscle tone you go straight up it's not worth it you know what you will gain you will not gain any
34:43muscle fiber you know differences by doing it and the recruitment pattern you can you might as do that connected to the
34:50races leading up to the main race I mean you have so many other things you can do instead of doing those
34:56strides you know yes of course there's like never muscular strength component that that you could benefit from that but as you
35:04say I agree with you for most like the risk like it will never trump having continuity and and removing those those
35:13injury periods because even for recreational runners I think the biggest limiting factor for everyone is this big breaks that that kills
35:23the continuity in the training. It's not the amount of as you say the strides or those high intensity things.
35:29Exactly And one thing that I find fascinating with reading your book and your training philosophy is that you seem to eh
35:38also during your own elite career have not been super rigid about the schedule.
35:43You should have some flexibility and a lot of flexibility.
35:55can exp I mean it's a way of going dynamic in terms of trading load so you will use both components that
36:05is outside the session and in the warmup and in the actual session to decide what I call the green or the
36:12yellow the red light eh let's say you have a high HRV low resting heart rate eh I have something the steer
36:23test how you feel in the quads when you go upstairs if you light and like springy and in addition you have
36:30low heart rate in the warmup eh and you have high heart rate on the lactate threshold or just like a general
36:37high speed on a particular heart rate then is a clear green light and I recommend extending that session maybe 20% 40%
36:45and take the like the full eh session eh and the full eh possible eh effect of the session all the way
36:55out you know and I also talk about you know if you have a green light day maybe need two days of
37:00recovery so you can extend the recovery to get like the maximum effect of that yellow day things are normal is like
37:08kind of like the same thing going on red you have some parameters that are off eh at the same time and
37:15then you just take one day off or you take you use a session for example for some light 451 to get
37:24like the system kind of in the same state again and I have like a full chapter where I talk about like
37:30the different adjustments you can do in terms of training eh and again it's about getting the most possible effect of the
37:41training that particular day and not lose control of the recovery period And it's such an easy way to do it.
37:47And usually most training schedules I think are too rigid.
37:51It's just like you do it like that and you do it like that every day or it's too varied, it's too
37:57much variation. That's I think the two main problems with most schedules and it's again high risk.
38:04Yes, that's really interesting and especially love that that stair test.
38:09We talk about this blood like the testing and heart so walk that's a really analog completely free way to to actually
38:17get a feel for how your legs legs feel that and you start to notice I mean if you don't think about
38:22it you don't notice but if you start thinking about it how does it actually feel up the stairs in the morning
38:28every day you will start oh this is how it is and I was running fast this session slow this session and
38:33then you can use it and put it into the traffic light test system and then you can try to compose effect.
38:40Yes. And I really also like that thinking of taking advantage of those good days when your body actually capable of adapting
38:51to a high load. And this is also one thing that I think a lot of people do wrong is that all
38:58of us have those days where everything feels feels great and the natural thing to do is to run faster.
39:04[laughter] s closer even harder in such doer same intensity and you consider putting an extra rest afterwards to get like the
39:19full like super compensation from that session and then you will get this feeling instead that's that's great way of of thinking
39:27of it and and I think that's something everybody can take with them if you feel super good in intervals run two
39:33or three more intervals instead of pushing pushing the pace because as we talked about earlier that's high risk and not any
39:41more reward so in your training there are some some room as you say for these like excesses that are not strictly
39:50threshold works and and we see the inger britsen doing this like a lot of this uphill short short inters like two
40:01300 meter intervals in in an incline Did you also do this kind of uphill work during your career?
40:16Yeah, I did. had two types of hill sessions that we were doing long hills and short hills.
40:24What happened to me during the short hill training eh was that I would I would eh get some trouble in the
40:36days afterwards in terms of the recovery window.
40:39Eh so I would do them flat In 2004 I started training with a steeple chaser Bjørna Kristensen who did quite well.
40:52Eh and he was in the same group as Henrik Ingitsen.
40:55And Bjørna would incorporate back again that hill session and then it would, you know, be transferred over to Henrik.
41:03So if you look for example on the regular week of Jakob Ingeb in the winter now eh that week is exactly
41:11the same as my training week in 2004 except for the hill which is you know I would flat same length but
41:19flat and he he does it in hills I recommend in general hills if you don't have like if if you not
41:27the odd one out so hills I think is better you have you know the benefit of the innovation like a buffering
41:43component so it's a lot of benefits with it and if you look on that training week usually after the excess you
41:49have two easy days and that has to do with muscle tone again I mean the whole week is composed due to
41:55muscleone and I talk about in the book how I came came to that particular week session by session every session is
42:07in terms of length and breaks and even the days of the week the same as in 2004 it's a reason for
42:16it. Yeah . too sour. And it's it's a pretty exact week that that so many runners have have copied and I
42:25think talking about those steep hills, I think it's really smart to do that kind of of threshold higher intensity work actually
42:35on upil coming from like fy physiotherapist perspective like also there with when we talk about the indure risk eh you you
42:43get a lot less of those pounding impacts that kind of work and still get almost all of the relevant stimulus for
43:00running that fast. Yes, I agree.
43:03And you touch on this that what we have seen at least what we we have seen from what how Jakob trains
43:11and also Andreas Almgren the best Swedish runner now and it's really similar to to the weeks you had and and you
43:19also write about this in the book that that when Hjert Inge Britsen started coaching Henrik and and later also Jakob and
43:28Philip who has this massive results and this family blown up eh popularized it and you write in the book that you
43:45had quite much communication with hjerte when he was designing these programs for his sons.
43:53How was that communication? I mean like I said you know one the few athletes that I was actually training with I
44:03had only two or three athletes that training with my whole career you know I was mostly training with the Kenans in
44:10Kenya and doing my lactic acid thing you know but one of them was the steepler that was in the group of
44:16Henry King Grison and that was the connection so that Henrik would do the training that Björn was doing and the same
44:24as of course as I was And then when got into the training took over the training schedule he would be in
44:34touch about the specifics to try to understand why training should be composed in the way I was thinking and that is
44:43you know like I said you know my my regular week in 2004 was 180 km like the standard week and Jacob
44:49is 181.5 quite similar. Just like a friendly exchange of training for like three or four years.
45:02Yes. And I've been reading your text and listen to interviews about you the last couple years about how the food was
45:10designed and what we talked about today and last year when when was in court he did this like statement that no
45:20one else than him had had any influence to the training method studio.
45:24And I want to hear how was hearing him say things like that?
45:27No, it's true. Yes. I mean it's very similar eh for most of the year.
45:41Eh you know having said that the exchange was friendly I mean and I've been fine with not being in the spotlight
45:51for anything like that. Eh at the same time it's not the truth.
45:57Yes. I think I think it's a shame him saying things like that like seeing like all the work and and hard
46:03efforts and experiments you did on yourself to to refine this model and then have someone take claiming that that a lot
46:12of the ideas come from them.
46:14I want to acknowledge in this that I think it's correct to call you the godfather of the Norwegian method and and
46:23you should have a lot of praise for like the work you have done to come up to this this really effective
46:29model that that so many not only elite runners but also now a lot of recreational runners have a lot of lot
46:35of value of eh from eh so we touched a bit on this before like this that the double thresold is this
46:43one of things really famous for and why why do you think that double fresholds is such a good way to good
46:55thing to incorporate in this model when I started doing the double thres in 95 you know I I got it from
47:04Peter Cole I think eh I mean he was kind of experimental also in his thinking and it was a way of
47:12like composing cycle of intensive workycle you and I would start that week with the first couple sessions of double thresold and
47:25I would get this feeling that of surprise that the evening session was not as hard as I would expect it to
47:34be and I was actually feeling better and I just never left that training session eh and I think the main reason
47:41why so effective zone on both sessions like priming effect session into the second session and then you get the stress response
47:53mostly coming the next day. So I usually explain it and I talk about this in the book as well.
47:59You have to look at it as one big session with like a long serial break.
48:03That's the best way. Then you get like a postprone stress reaction.
48:07I mean we know this from literature.
48:09You have post prone stress after a load.
48:12So this is well known and you use that window of load to put as much work as possible in that window.
48:21Eh, I think that's the main reason why it works so well.
48:24So you get the benefit at the same time as the risk is lower and you get a lot of specific work
48:31eh around the threshold and then you also can have longer recovery time to the next one.
48:37Exactly . Exactly. And I think for anyone who hasn't tried doing two sessions a day, I think you should try it
48:45once because the first times you do it, it's fascinating how good you can feel in the second one.
48:50Yeah. And it's also I mean if you look at history you know people have been doing two hard sessions on the
48:57same day for you for a long time in different environments.
49:00But this is more of a structural approach.
49:03You structure it within the golden zone.
49:05You have the long intervals in the morning.
49:07short in the evening you do it in a certain type evening you do it in a certain type of of cycle
49:11you do the easy between the cycle you do the easy between the double double thres so it's a more structural thres
49:14so it's a more structural approach approach to load twice a day to load twice a day like the feeling you can
49:23have on some of the second session done my best some of my best intervals on on on a double day the
49:29second on on on a double day the second interval and that has also I've never tried this myself or never dar
49:32to try it but it's it's got me thinking if there is like an evening race minute work that ever experiment with
49:47what you think about yeah I tried it but it's hard to measure that's the thing know and also difficult you have
49:56some component you know you will have some you know you will by doing the threshold in the morning you will have
50:03some effect on the glycogen those things not you know I'm not certain that it works for setting a PR in the
50:12evening like I talk about in the book I do recommend doing threshold work on the warm up you know that's that's
50:18a good thing eh but it can be I'm not sure to be honest more things to experiment yeah I didn't have
50:27time you know I was so busy and I was asked you know when I look back at my career if it
50:32was anything that I regret and the only thing is I regret not coming to the final title model structure until 2004
50:42that's the main thing I'm not sure if I had run any faster bu I was very very very close to my
50:48potential but it would have been a much easier right it was you know difficult on the way to get there and
50:56this kind of training model as you say now it's it's been adapted with some some of course some different variants from
51:02from a lot of different athletes How much more room do you think it is for experimenting and and finding new things
51:12that could potentially raise performance even higher?
51:16I talk about that also in like the last chapter of the book you know of course if you had continuous like
51:23measurements during a session you know you would do you could do more variation in the session and maybe benefit from that
51:30problem now is that if you do too much variation it's difficult to measure and it's difficult to know the load eh
51:38so I I mean it's obvious that you can improve the training.
51:41I also talk about you know we have like the center with threshold training and then everything else orbits around it and
51:47then you have like the dynamic component of it so you try to pull in the elements that you are either very
51:54good at that you want to strengthen or you are weak at that you need to better at.
51:58Erm and one of those things could be more like typodynamic sessions of course.
52:05Ehm so yes it can obviously be improved and the other thing of course is and that's something I use altitude training
52:14to get like the cross effect on the peaking window you know you can use heat training you can use altitude you
52:20can do this kind of like mixing of components to be better on the race day.
52:25Yes , and let's go back a bit a little bit back to these double thresholds.
52:33You write a lot about this this in the book how it can be used for for in different training weeks and
52:39so but I'm sure my listeners are are curious of what amount of training per week do you need for it for
52:47to to to start experimenting with with double I mean first I talk about how you can try to get into double
52:55thresold by you know going up these different steps.
52:59One of the steps is that you need to be used to running twice a day and that is okay.
53:06So you know you do you run twice a day some days of the week and that is okay.
53:11And then you can add a thresold in the evening, morning run in the morning like an easy run and then you
53:16can add double threshold but let's say that you are doing a job that is manually demanding and you do four sessions
53:25a week or four days a week you know you can do double thres in the weekend that's lower risk so I
53:31would say you have to be able to handle twice a day trading you need to have control over intensity eh in
53:37order to experiment with it and you need to be injury free those three things yes and as I said before I
53:46recommend anyone that that runs at least quite high volume two to at least try it because like the feeling the evening
53:54session is often really good but of course you need to fit in it logistically as you say into the life you
54:00live as well. Yeah . But with that said and this is very clear when you when you read the book that
54:05and you also have these different training structures if you train less than six hours per week and so that this model
54:12you can for sure do without the double fresh you have to do single fresh runs of course.
54:18Yeah. Also effective of And one thing as a physiotherapist part of the book that I found really interesting was some of
54:27your insights around injury prevention and and I love the fact that you call out this kind of generic stretching advice and
54:36foam rolling and different recovery machines and so and also like generic strength as as the best like injury preventive tools which
54:48which often is marketed as and a lot by colleagues to myself that maybe are not super into running but but they
54:57super into mobility work and and strength work and they recommend it to all runners like this is what you do to
55:03stay injury free and and as you also touch on in the book like of course the intensity as we have talked
55:08a lot about already intensity control super important but I would say that the far most most important thing is like the
55:16training load and and how we structure that and have good progression in that.
55:22And you write a bit about this in your book that you also from the federation so we were pushed to do
55:30more of this stretching. Did you get any pushback when you started realizing that maybe this isn't the most important thing to
55:37stay in Europe? Yeah, I mean eh I had like a period where I did extensive stretching and mobility training to see
55:47if that could give some results.
55:48And then I went down to Kenya again tested the Kenyan runners and I would see that you know they are stable
55:55elastic but there's not much flexibility there.
56:00And again you know if looking at stretching for example gives a good feeling afterwards but that feeling doesn't give any like
56:11structural changes into the muscles. So it's not something that would relate to any running performance at all.
56:18It just takes time and it can be, you know, like a pleasurable experience if you like it.
56:24But in terms of performance and injury prevention, it doesn't have any place in the long distances, I think, in the short
56:32distances, of course, not in the long ones.
56:34And I also talk like you said about strength training it needs to be careful again due to muscle, you will increase
56:40the muscle is a very very high risk when you do that.
56:44You need to have full control over the recovery window.
56:48And it's difficult with strength training.
56:50If you do strength, you need be aware where to place it in the week.
56:56And I talk about like the different days you can place it in terms of the load and in terms of the
57:02threshold. And important to just know the risk and then consider it weed against the benefit the potential benefit of it.
57:15And I mean when I was an a top athlete, you know, I had life Ole Ales which was the coach of
57:22K is the coach of Ken Varhold, which is probably eh I would say the leading coach eh he's the smartest coach
57:33I've met ever. Eh, we still have contact so eh would compose eh I would see I would say close to optimal
57:43sprint and strength training and even then it was very very hard to have the muscular system the way I wanted it
57:51and I would say if you have a different experiment with it try instead to take it away and try threat training
57:57for an extended period of time and come back and see.
58:01Yes, it's interesting because as you say adding strength training there are studies showing that it can have quite good effect on
58:08especially on on running economy and so and some research showing that it can potentially be injury preventive but that's that's not
58:19as good evidence as as one can think based on how it's it's talked about I mean I mean it's sort of
58:26the same as intense training you know you do some anaerobic sessions and you ceiling much higher and do that with the
58:43type of threas training I talk about in the book and then you add what I call drip load of anaerobic work
58:50just to kind of like you push like the anaerobic button but you don't push it hard enough so that it triggers
58:56like a eh system going to early into a race.
59:03Yes. I mean, this is like a theoretical way of thinking, but I do think it has some eh to it.
59:12Yes. Yes. That's really interesting and and eh yes, let's let's go on and talk a bit about muscleone.
59:22I mean, you keep coming back to it and it's clear that it is central to your entire training And to someone
59:31who's not that familiar with the whole concept, can you what the muscle tone is and how you measure it or feel
59:41it in your everyday training? Yeah, I mean it has to do with how eh the muscle like the if you look
59:53at it as like like a dough eh it's how the eh the general like structural eh resting ehm how can I
1:00:08explain it easily The muscle has some characteristics that are there even though it's not in any kind of movement which is
1:00:22what we call resting tone. It has to do with how the water content it has to do with like the cross
1:00:29bridges between eh the muscle fibers that has to do with eh like the eh different eh fascia eh parts of the
1:00:40muscle. do structural proteins like molecules.
1:00:50how springy and how responsive the muscles are.
1:00:54Ehm and then you have elasticity which is like how easily the muscle moves back to its position and then you have
1:01:02stiffness which is you know how easily it is moved and this is kind of theoretical but like I said it's so
1:01:10central to performance buuse this is like the main limiting factor in in running and people can argue with me and that's
1:01:18fine but I will not move on that this is the thing in terms of what you feel the days you are
1:01:25strong and the days you feel heavy and that is why it can change so fast from one day to another no
1:01:31other system can change that fast but the muscular system eh and like I said the Norwegian model or method is centered
1:01:42around the muscular system as a limiting factor I think it's it's really interesting concept and as you write that in the
1:01:52book as well there like no real good evidence supporting this but but you have some good theoretical thinking around it for
1:01:58sure but do you think that part of what you like describe as this rising tone can also be explained by more
1:02:05micro damage to to the muscle fiber and from the higher intensity work as well eh not a lot but there is
1:02:13scientific evidence of the structural component that we I talk about there so the evidence is there it's not like the the
1:02:21wi area that study But if you look on like a basal studies there plenty to read about and I did literal
1:02:28search in terms of my masters paper also.
1:02:33So yeah I mean can be I would say that in terms of damage probably that can trigger something that can eh
1:02:42eh do ehm eh I would say eh movement in muscle tone you know so I mean and that's more intense training
1:02:54it's probably some metabolic component that goes into into the equation here so something Eh, but like I said, the strange the
1:03:05big thing about intensive training so unpredictable in terms of muscle tone.
1:03:11I mean, you can go this direction, you can go that direction and it's difficult, it's hard to get it right.
1:03:18Yes. It's really interesting and what I found most interesting about this is that it's probably a lot that we we don't
1:03:24understand like how the it's not described and like I said I do think this is the this is the most important
1:03:34aspect of training that is not widely discussed is is huge and even like for example now I'm a recreational runner from
1:03:42period to period I do try to optimize my muscles again I do the Mass massage I do the different type of
1:03:51things that I know works in terms of mice like the warm baths all of that and I will run 20 25
1:03:57seconds fast per kilometers on my easy runs or my treasure runs.
1:04:01You know it has huge impact and I'm when I'm doing regular training I'm pretty good.
1:04:07Not bad but I'm not an optimal leader.
1:04:10Let's give the audience listening this some practical takeaways.
1:04:14Of course, I really recommend reading Mario's book to get a really deep dive and understanding to the whole mythphology and also
1:04:21get weekly concept and so but for someone listening if if someone trains about four times a week how do you structure
1:04:30a week like that in terms of how much fresal work and and how much more easy work you do?
1:04:36I mean if you do four times a week I would do two times threshold 145 15 and one easy run and
1:04:43then I would add some long eh cool down or warm up to the interval sessions.
1:04:51easy way to do it and the best is a cool down you want the muscle tone to go down that's the
1:04:57easy way to structure that type of week and then you can do periods where you only threshold for like an extended
1:05:02period of time and then you don't do the intense session in the in the weekend or or whatever and then you
1:05:09know you can do the mixing in that type of training week and I think we touch on this but what what
1:05:16would you say is the single biggest mistake that recreational runners doing too much intense training going little bit too intense that's
1:05:27the main thing and then you get the secondary effect on the muscular system and the third effect is injuries eh high
1:05:34muscle tone you know leads to high risk of injuries yes what i you answering and i think so spot on on
1:05:43that and that a lot of runners including myself needs to hear it over and over again to actually it's do turns
1:05:52out to be harder for us.
1:05:55Yes. And I think let's end with talking about some modern training theory that has sort of happened after your elite career.
1:06:05I'm really curious to hear your input and you write about parts of this in your book as well.
1:06:10I'm interesting to hear you talk about it because today in both elite running and and with everyday runners there's a lot
1:06:17of hype around this modern shoe technology that has really been a game changer for many and different training hack hacks eh
1:06:27for example heat training and sodium bicarbonate but let's start with the shoes you write a bit about this in your book
1:06:36as well but but what your thought of training method in my office you know been in my in the same general
1:06:50practice in 2012 so I had the patients here you know for 14 years now and when the shoes came eh 2018
1:07:001920 I could see a big shift in terms of injuries and you know I have a lot of runners in my
1:07:07practice and that's due to the shoes I think so with shoes and treasing combined you you know the injuries it's so
1:07:15much lower than if you take away both or one of them yes so I'm very positive to the news shoes I
1:07:23mean I think it's just very very good that more people can run and injury free you know yes totally agree with
1:07:30you I think it's sort of demonize running for runners who are maybe not optimally built so more can handle more running
1:07:39without getting this but you still have to be careful with intensity you know you still have the same kind of challenge
1:07:46you know ehm so you have to be careful with intensity control even though it helps and eh this you write a
1:07:57little bit about in in your book as well heat training is something that I've been really interested in lately and there
1:08:03are some really great great studies showing showing that you can increase your blood plasma also your red blood cell count basically
1:08:11some of the the same effects you see from from altitude training and there more and more athletes experimenting with this and
1:08:19it's it's quite much hype around it this what are your thoughts do you think there is a place for some some
1:08:25heat training elements in the Norwegian method yeah obviously eh when I was doing my training in Kenya I would do quite
1:08:33extensive testing after the stays and I could see eh the effect eh on those days that were you knew we had
1:08:41some this was usually in January I started my altitude cycle in Kenya and was very hot sometimes and the hotter it
1:08:48was the better results I had on the blood samples for example outwards eh so so already then I was suspecting that
1:08:55something was going on here my challenge is I didn't have more time to experiment you know you cannot do all type
1:09:02of experiments at the same time it will not give eh any results I mean I doing a lot of things and
1:09:10you know that's inaccurate enough to eh add several more components but you know it's about the stress response.
1:09:20The good thing about heat training is that you add stress response without interfering with the muscular system.
1:09:26That's why it can be beneficial.
1:09:28You know, the problem is for example you do alternative training like with the bike for example you will load the muscular
1:09:36system that can be a problem and that's why you know altitude is good.
1:09:40You're still running but you're adding some load without interfering with like the rest of the model.
1:09:46Yes. And for a recreational runner training what four to six times a week, do you think there's potential to have a
1:09:57higher heart rate or basically higher intensity using heat training like basically putting on weight to too much close but still have
1:10:07the pace the the pace intensity low to not get that rising muscle tone.
1:10:13So you get sort of the aerobical benefits from a bit higher heart rate without the risk of for the male system
1:10:24and and endure I'm not sure actually when you're running 46 times a week I would in that case think that better
1:10:35to maybe use like heat training for periods of time just for like a natural periodization of the training instead of doing
1:10:44it on sessions like that. I suspect that it will drain you more than the effect of it.
1:10:50Um, but I'm not sure. It's interesting and I think we will learn more about it in the coming years.
1:10:57There's this new study that came out last year also about passive heat training basically taking a really hot bathtub and you
1:11:02also saw there that the red bl mass increased.
1:11:08So will learn more about it in the coming years.
1:11:12Yeah. elements you know it's such a small thing compared to intensity control and pressure training and doing the structural process.
1:11:24I mean it's just two different things you can't even compare it.
1:11:28Yeah. That's that's really good that you elaborate on that because including myself runners allow to geek geek out about this new
1:11:35and and hyped things and but but the amount of progress you can have from adding these micro tweaks is quite minimal
1:11:44to having years of consistent high volume aerobic work.
1:11:49So I think that's a really good point to touch on that if you think these things are fun to experiment.
1:11:54I would recommend trying but if it comes at the cost of not doing the basic right it's not worth it.
1:12:00Exactly And another thing that's been really hyped at least the last two years I think is the use of sodium And
1:12:10from my understanding now most top athletes use it in racing.
1:12:15Eh is this something you have followed along on and is it something you tried at all during your elite career?
1:12:24Now I wasn't doing it anything with bicarbonate when I was an athlete.
1:12:30It was at that time it was usually the like middle distance runners you know we had some some that were experimenting
1:12:37with it. But in my case no one wasn't it wasn't that much of a focus either in that period.
1:12:43In the 80s it was more focus like mid distances but so I don't know to be honest you know on top
1:12:53level it's difficult to measure on top level also I mean the theoretical answer is you know it's likely has an effect
1:13:02like on a like a some level but if it has that great of an effect in the actual race for a
1:13:09length of time above a certain number of minutes is hard to I don't know.
1:13:13Yeah . Thanks a lot for taking time to talk to me, Marus.
1:13:19We could probably sit here for many hours and talk about training and it's been it's been an honor to be able
1:13:24to pick your brain about a little bit about this topic and also being able to read your book that I that
1:13:30I highly recommend. And when I was reading it, I kept thinking that a I wish I had this book 15 years
1:13:35ago when I was trying to pursue a career as an elite guide.
1:13:40But I'm glad it's out now.
1:13:41And I think many runners will have had huge value from understanding the concept better from that book.
1:13:48And when this podcast is published, the book should be published as well.
1:13:53Where can people find it if interested?
1:13:55Now it's on Amazon. Great Marus, thanks for the talk.
1:13:58than